Authenticity Road
Adventures in men's work. The search for personal authenticity, emotional healing, and the meaning of modern masculinity. Authenticity Road follows our adventures through the world of men's work, as we uncover the many layers of self-discovery. #menswork #menshealth #mensmentalhealth
Authenticity Road
Episode 3.19: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy with Jill Sitnick
Survivor and advocate Jill Sitnick takes us on a transformative journey as she shares her own powerful story of healing childhood trauma-induced PTSD through psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. Uncover the myths and misconceptions surrounding psychedelics, often misunderstood as recreational substances, and learn how compounds like psilocybin, MDMA, and LSD are now recognized for their remarkable therapeutic benefits in controlled settings. Jill takes us through her transition from skepticism to advocacy, revealing how MDMA-assisted therapy helped her unlock profound personal growth, opening new doors to healing.
Explore the fascinating intersection of somatic experiencing and psychedelic therapy, where emotions are experienced physically, altering long-held perceptions of trauma. Jill's candid account of her journey from the corporate world to embracing psychedelic-assisted coaching provides insight into this emerging therapeutic frontier. Dive into themes of reparenting and Internal Family Systems (IFS), and how these approaches, when paired with psychedelics, can accelerate personal growth and healing, offering a fresh perspective on overcoming entrenched emotional blocks.
We navigate the complex legal landscape of psychedelic therapy, highlighting the importance of safety, efficacy, and professional guidance. Delve into Jill's use of MDMA and psilocybin, illustrating the transformative shifts in perception and emotional response they fostered. From the intriguing potential of psychedelics to treat PTSD, depression, anxiety, and chronic pain, to the challenges of gaining FDA approval, this episode promises to equip you with insights and inspiration on the evolving landscape of psychedelic therapy. Join us as we encourage authentic living and curiosity in this ever-evolving field.
Connect with Jill:
- Email: Jill@thejourneysage.com
- Website: https://thejourneysage.com/
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheJourneySage
- Rescuing Jill on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Rescuing-Jill-Mushrooms-Childhood-Trauma-Induced/dp/B09X7TTZT7/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
Additional Resrouces:
- Clinicaltrials.gov for trial information
- MAPS.org (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) for psychedelic research
Visit the Authenticity Road™ website: authenticityroad.online
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What if all the things you thought you knew about psychedelics were wrong? For decades, we've been told that psychedelics are dangerous, addictive, even mind-destroying. But how would your outlook shift if you discovered that these very substances are now being used quite successfully to heal trauma, ease anxiety and help people reclaim their lives. Anxiety and help people reclaim their lives. Today we're diving into a powerful conversation with Jill Sitnick, an advocate and educator who used psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy to heal her own PTSD. We'll break down the myths, explore the science and hear Jill's incredible story of transformation. This is not about having fun or escaping reality. This is about deep, intentional healing. If you're ready to challenge your assumptions and learn something new, you're in for a fascinating ride. So let's get on the road. Welcome to the Authenticity Road podcast.
Speaker 2:We started this podcast to share our stories and hear from others about their adventures in men's work.
Speaker 1:Join us on the journey to our fully authentic selves, emotional healing and the meaning of modern masculinity here on Authenticity Road. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the Authenticity Road Podcast. I am Ator and this week on the podcast, we are absolutely delighted to have with us Jill Sitnick, author, journey educator and advocate. This week's episode is significantly different than most of our episodes, and not just because we have a female-identified guest, which is rare I think Jill is our third female guest in all of the episodes we've done but also because we are going to be talking about psychedelics, which is something that we have only touched on in the past and that I know a lot of folks are very interested in and about which I know absolutely nothing. So this is going to be a real learning experience for me.
Speaker 1:Jill is a healed survivor of childhood trauma-induced PTSD with psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. She is a credible voice who can explain how the therapy works in order to combat the stigma surrounding psychedelics. She has over 25 years of award-winning educational technology experience, including careers at Microsoft and Amazon, and Jill is known for being an expert at simplifying complicated subjects, much like psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. So, jill, thank you so much for being here today. I am delighted to have you. Is there anything that I've left out of that intro that you would like for people to know before we get started?
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh Tor. No, that was beautiful. Thank you so much and I'm thrilled to be here. I'm thrilled to be number three. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and if I met you first, you would have been number one but Nicely done, sir.
Speaker 2:But I didn't.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, leave it to a gay guy to know how to talk to women, right? So let's just jump right into this. As I said, I am an absolutely confessed novice at this. I know nothing about psychedelics. I have had guests in the past who have touched on it, people who have had these journeys, who have used this kind of therapy, but it's never really been a deep dive, and so you're really going to be our intro into that. So I think the first question I have is what misconceptions do I probably have about what is involved with psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy?
Speaker 2:So I think that's a fantastic question, because when I tell people that I advocate for psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy after the initial shock, I'll then get a wink-wink of well, that must have been fun. And so the first misconception is that this was a recreational experience, that was a lot of fun, and it was not. It was a trauma healing, going into the past and healing some deep trauma wounds. And I will also say I think can I just throw in a second misconception that kind of comes right on the heels of that.
Speaker 1:Throw in as many misconceptions as you possibly can.
Speaker 2:So I am Generation X child of the 80s and so I grew up with the eggs in the frying pan. Just say no to drugs. And so the very common misconception is that psychedelics in general will destroy your brain. I had that misconception when this therapy landed in my lap. To be candid, my first response was there's no way I can risk my brain, and I needed to go look at the clinical research and start to understand what these compounds are. And, just like any other drug or substance, the dosage is important. So the misconception of psychedelics are just awful because I heard so-and-so, did so-and-so on so-and-so.
Speaker 2:I want you to think about all of the stories we've heard of people who have drank too much, all of the stories we've heard of people who have taken too many of XYZ drug. The dosage is super important. Whatever else you have in your system is super important. Every single consideration you would have with any other prescription medication is exactly how you should look at psychedelics. And when you look at psychedelics through that lens, they suddenly become medications that the FDA has approved with. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, let me. Let me rephrase that the FDA has given breakthrough designation status to psilocybin, magic mushrooms, mdma or the street name ecstasy, molly and even LSD. So we have companies understanding that these drugs that people of my generation had a misconception are just completely awful. They're actually not. So there you go. Thank you for letting me get the two misconceptions out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, any other misconceptions that come up as you're thinking of this.
Speaker 2:I think the third misconception that I find is that every psychedelic because it's called the psychedelic, that it all works the same and that can't be further than the truth. So MDMA, for instance, or what folks know on the street as ecstasy or molly instance, or what folks know on the street as ecstasy or molly, it's a heart opener, it is an empathogen for trauma victims. It makes our body relaxed, it calms down the amygdala which is the fire alarm in our brain.
Speaker 2:It makes us more compassionate. It's a beautiful medication for dealing with trauma. It does not produce hallucinations. Psilocybin, on the other hand, a low dose of psilocybin, where you can still carry on a conversation, can increase neuroplasticity like crazy so that you can start to change your mind and start to change your behaviors. But a high dose of psilocybin, like Johns Hopkins has done research on, can actually make people stop smoking. It can ease end-of-life anxiety. So dosage counts, because that's a very different experience, even with that psychedelic at a high dose versus a low dose. So they work differently. I've worked with MDMA, psilocybin, 5-meo-dmt also known as Bufo, regular DMT, iboga and I have done presentations talking about how those different compounds, all labeled psychedelics, actually worked differently to heal trauma.
Speaker 1:so that's the third one wow, okay, um, well, thank you, thank you very much for that. I love hearing that. I love hearing these misconceptions, uh, because it does go to the root of some of my biases, uh, some of the things that maybe I, I thought going in. Know, I recognize that these substances have therapeutic value and yet there always seems to be this air of judgment about this being a recreational experience. You know, you hear about folks, you know I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to the desert to have an ayahuasca journey, or you know whatever, and it's, it's enrobed in this sort of mythical hippie, right, yeah, exactly, exactly, um, and what we're talking about here, what you and I are talking about today, is different procedure it's a medical procedure.
Speaker 1:This is a therapeutic medical procedure. This is not.
Speaker 2:I found a shaman in peru who was going to lead me on an ayahuasca journey I couldn't have said it better myself and and I don't want to discount people who've had beautiful shamanic experiences that are very healing.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:What I'm talking about is the other side, very therapeutic, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things I left out of the intro was your personal experience with this and why you are such an advocate. Because it was so effective for you, um, and that I and I also didn't mention that you have a book, even rescuing Jill about at some point. Don't worry about that about your journey and I'm wondering if you are able to share with the audience, if you feel comfortable sharing with the audience some of your journey and some of how this brought you to be an advocate for this.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well. So let's tie that in a little bit. The inherent bias we have about in the West, kind of running down to Peru and having a shamanic experience, and that's a little too woo woo, I was exactly in that camp. So one of the reasons why I do this advocacy work now is that corporate Jill Microsoft Jill at the time would not listen in any way, shape or form to the stereotypical hippie of someone with rainbow hair and lots of piercings and lots of tattoos. I'm just giving the stereotype. Nobody get upset.
Speaker 1:Right. Hold your cards and letters. Yeah, hold the cards and letters.
Speaker 2:I'm just telling you what Jill would not have paid attention to. But corporate Jill would absolutely pay attention to another corporate Jill.
Speaker 2:And there were no corporate Jill. How many times can I say corporate Jill? There were no corporate Jill voices that I could find. The only voices I could find were on Reddit, and you never know who you're talking to on Reddit. And so I thought it was really important because this therapy worked, because I was privileged enough to be able to afford it and because it was it literally fell in my lap and it's underground and the FDA is in the process of approving it that I just thought it was really important to share the reality of what the therapy is, because it's not turnkey and it's also not nearly as dangerous as what any headline is going to make you think. So I hope I kind of cleared up why I have been doing this.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:My story is that I lost my partner of over 20 years, carl. I lost Carl and about 18 months after his passing I wound up having a panic attack. From a work email that was like a level one, but my body flipped out. My body felt like I was going to be poor in a month and my mind you know my frontal cortex my mind knew that couldn't possibly happen. My mind knew that couldn't possibly happen, but my body imagine the thing that you're most scared of heights or talking in front of people or spiders that physical sensation. That's very much like a panic attack.
Speaker 2:I started to have this panic attack and it would not go away. I wound up going back to my therapist who had helped me with my grief work and we started talking about these physical symptoms. For the first time. I started talking about my childhood, which included a domestic abuse father, a clinically depressed mother who attempted suicide multiple times throughout her life, food insecurity, housing insecurity. It wasn't again generation X. I didn't have a great childhood, but I know a lot of people had it worse, so I had never addressed my childhood. So all of a sudden we're linking in my therapy sessions my physical symptoms, my tight back, my upset stomach, my headache, and I start thinking about these childhood memories. And my therapist I don't think her eyebrows could have gotten higher when I was starting to tell stories of like seeing my mother after she shot herself or, you know, my father throwing me outside in the winter for a couple of hours. Like you know, again, these are my stories.
Speaker 2:So, so after a couple of months of talk therapy and at the time I had I was on a Wellbutrin prescription, primarily because of the grief I was not getting better and my therapist at the time was training. This is how it fell into my lap. My therapist was training to become a psychedelic assisted psychotherapist and she told me she had me read the book the Body Keeps the Score by Vander Kool, which explained what trauma is. Anybody out there who has gone through anything harsh in life it's a mandatory read. In my mind it's literally.
Speaker 2:I didn't believe my therapist. When she's like you've got PTSD, I'm like, no, have you met me? Come on, it's what taught me what trauma is. And then she took me over to mapsorg, m-a-p-sorg and this is a mouthful that's the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. Those are the folks who got the FDA breakthrough designation for MDMA for PTSD and have been running the clinical trials At the time, because this is a couple of years ago now. At the time they were at the phase two trial and on average two-thirds of the participants in the trials, after three sessions with MDMA, no longer qualified for a PTSD diagnosis book. Looking at the clinical data and trusting my therapist who had been helping me with my grief. That ultimately allowed me to make the decision to trust this process and start the therapy.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's quite a story. Now, you yourself are not a licensed psychotherapist.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Correct. I was a patient right, but but even now you so you haven't said oh, this worked so well for me that I'm going to go out and and become a psychotherapist um well, no, but I am in third wave psychedelic coaching program, so so I'll be doing psychedelic coaching. Excellent.
Speaker 2:That's more my speed than therapy, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, so all right. Oh my God, there's so much here to unpack.
Speaker 2:I know I'm so sorry. Usually people want to know what the therapy's like. If that helps.
Speaker 1:Well, no, no, no, I will get there, we will get there. I want to step back. I just want to say a couple of things. One is that experiencing our emotions in our physical body is something that is very near and dear to me and the folks who listen to this podcast. This is somatic. Experiencing is kind of the basic, the basic building block of what it is that we do and what it is that we believe in, and all of that, or at least it is for me and the folks that I've learned from and hang around with. I'm sure there are listeners here who have never heard of it before. Um, but I will tell you that when I was first presented with the notion that I could experience my emotions as physical sensations, I called bullshit.
Speaker 2:Me too. Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
Speaker 1:I was like what. Yeah, and so you know, with the first time that someone said to me, what are you feeling and where do you feel it?
Speaker 2:Where do you feel it?
Speaker 1:Right, I thought they were just out of their minds and it wasn't until I started doing it and saying OK, what am I feeling? All right, Well, I guess, I guess I'm. I guess I'm feeling angry. You know where do you feel that? Well, I don't know, I guess I feel it in my shoulders'm feeling angry. You know where do you feel that? Well, I don't know, I guess I feel it in my shoulders, you know.
Speaker 1:I love it, I love it, yes, and like begrudgingly getting there. Until now, it, just now, it's so second nature, as I'm sure it is for you. Like you know, I feel something in my upper arms and I'm like, oh, that's, you know, whatever Right. Or, and I'm like, oh, that's, you know, whatever right. Or for you, you just point it to your throat, right, so you feel it in your throat and you can fill in the blanks as to what that emotion is. So, yes, and the Body Keeps the Score is a very important book to everybody who's involved in this kind of work, and so I'm delighted, thrilled, that you brought it up, because it is fundamental to to the work that we do. So. So that was part a of what I wanted to unpack there. Part B of what I want to unpack from what you just said is talk to me about a, the coaching. I have never heard of a psychedelic assisted coach before, so that's brand new to me. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2:I will tell you, it was brand new to me too. I have my I've always wanted. Years ago I went through an executive coaching program and loved it, and then, honestly, my partner passed. I joined Microsoft. I didn't have time to actually get my certification, and I've been in instructional technology for oh my gosh, way too many years. At this point I'll just say child of the 80s. That's all we need to hear from the audience.
Speaker 1:Well, here I was going to say you're only 29.
Speaker 2:Of course, yes, I'm only 29. How?
Speaker 1:long could it have been? Let's go with that.
Speaker 2:How long could it have been? Let's go with that. So I'm in a great situation right now that I was able to leave my corporate job do this advocacy full time. And when I started to, when people started reaching out to me because of my story, I found my renewed interest in coaching. So I joined IPEC's coaching program, which is a really solid foundational program, and then I happened to come across Third Wave's psychedelic coaching program and so the IPEC program is very much the foundational how you actually coach, the open-ended questions, the validations, the energy, the pacing of a session, the pacing of a multiple, multi-month, goal-oriented forward thinking versus therapy is more backward leaning, more forward leaning. The third wave program is delightful in that the absolute focus on the different medicines, because what psychedelics allow you to do is open up brain neuroplasticity.
Speaker 2:You know Michael Pollan's how to Change your Mind book was titled because psychedelics allow you to change your mind. They allow you to heal trauma, they allow you to like the ski slope that has, you know, grooves in it. They allow you to heal trauma. They allow you to like the ski slope, keep that neuroplasticity window open longer to affect behavior changes. And I'm finding it fascinating. I have explored microdosing with at least two substances right now. With at least two substances right now, One to definitely combat this will tell you, I'm not 29, but one of them definitely combat the perimenopause brain fog. So it's an area that we have a lot of citizen science going on. Right now. You're not finding a lot of research about it, but I'm finding it fascinating. As someone who has used psychedelics to heal trauma, I understand the neuroplasticity value and kind of keeping that window open a little bit to change patterns in a coaching environment. I'm finding fascinating.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow. I love the sound of this because one of the challenges that I have as a coach is that sometimes and I call it the comfy sweater phenomenon, and that is that people get so entrenched in their trauma that it's almost like a comfy sweater. Like a comfy sweater, I know this trauma, I know how it feels. I, okay, maybe I don't like it, like, maybe, maybe it's kind of lumpy and got some holes in it, but it's my sweater and I know how it feels and I know how it works and I don't want to get rid of it. Right? What if I lose this trauma and I find something else, right? So, so it's this reluctance, this resistance towards moving forward, towards letting go of those things. I can't tell you how many folks just don't want to let go. And so this idea that creating neuroplasticity allows people to change how they look at what has happened to them and the traumas that they carry Brilliant, brilliant you might've just convinced me to go down this rabbit hole.
Speaker 1:And start learning about it.
Speaker 2:It's funny you say this. Now I've got two things. So I made a little workbook for people.
Speaker 2:I went on a couple of psychedelic tourism retreats and I saw people get super disappointed in their, in their results because they hadn't put the work in and resistance is part of every single journey and I use the word journey for psychedelics, therapeutically or coaching versus recreationally trip resistance as part of it all, because we don't know what's on the other side. So I always tell people I was kind of warned them you're going to resist. It could be anger against me, it could be anger against yourself, it could be fear. Whatever it is, there's going to be some sort of resistance. So let's get, let's be prepared for that. And then there was another part of that you were talking about oh, the letting go, the neuroplasticity. You know what? I forgot the other side. The resistance was important, though it's important to validate that everyone's going to feel that resistance.
Speaker 1:The going down the rabbit hole Was that.
Speaker 2:There was another part, but you know what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. Well, you know what If?
Speaker 2:it comes back to you.
Speaker 1:It'll come back, it'll come back.
Speaker 2:And if it wasn't meant to be, oh, I know what it was. I know what it was, I explained. It's funny because in the program that I'm in I actually explained to a couple of folks the concept of reparenting and the concept of IFS and it is so delightful to see how people react to that information when it's new to them. Because when you add the neuroplasticity component of psychedelics to a reparenting strategy or an IFS strategy, you can move pretty quickly through some challenging things.
Speaker 1:Wow yeah, some challenging things. Wow yeah, um, you know, ifs is another one of those things where, when I first encountered it, I'm like, yeah, I don't think so. And then, uh, it was because of, uh, the podcast that I invited an IFS practitioner onto the show and he took me into a session and we actually did the session live on the show and and I was sold from there and I'm like you're hired, I. And then I saw him for years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a beautiful. I'm dealing with a part right now that's a little cranky, you know. It's a great way to use your imagination to help you heal your stuff. It's fantastic. Great way to use your imagination to help you heal your stuff. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um, there was a documentary a few years back well, maybe five years ago now called like the miraculous mushroom or something over the amazing mushroom. Do you, do you remember this?
Speaker 2:The Stamets one where he talked about his stuttering.
Speaker 1:Don't remember. I remember the thing that moved me most deeply about this particular documentary was that it was helping people with end-of-life issues. Oh yeah, and how folks came back from these journeys, these assisted journeys, without any fears about dying. They went into these things just so afraid of what it was like going to be like to die and came back saying I'm not afraid to die anymore. Right, um, the miraculous mushroom. Now this is going to bother me.
Speaker 2:I I probably should have looked at it before we started the show um, but uh, I can talk about that component if you'd like yeah, well, we'll.
Speaker 1:We'll get back to that, because what I want to go before that is something that you brought up and that is you said. The next question most people have is what does the process look like? So, jel, what does the process look like?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I'm so glad you asked.
Speaker 1:I have a feeling you've talked about this before.
Speaker 2:Well, it's the most common question because of all of the stereotypes we have about drugs. People are, like, just go on behind an alley. Do you go home Like, how does it work? So here's what I say to folks. I want you to think about any other medical procedure like a surgery. You have your preparation time, you have the day of the surgery and then you have your healing time. Think of it as 40-20-40.
Speaker 2:I'm an English major. I keep it nice and simple. 40% of the time and, by the way, this cycle that I'm talking about I did this three times over the course of a year. So time and, by the way, this cycle that I'm talking about I did this three times over the course of a year. So 40% of the time is preparing, talking to your therapist, talking to your therapist and guide. The standard process according to the MAPS trials is a male and a female with a patient, so there's three people in the room. So you need to get to know who these people are. I obviously knew my therapist needed to get to know my guide. I needed to know why I was going into the medicine session.
Speaker 2:For me it was all about fear. I'll give you the spoiler alert as a toddler, I was beaten by my father pretty regularly. Toddlers can't understand that their caregivers aren't caregivers. I internalize there's something wrong with me, the universe is against me. Boom Took me a year to be able to figure that out because I went into this. As the universe is against me, I'm not allowed to be happy, I'm not allowed to live, I'm constantly scared. So fear was the primary. How do I stop being so scared? So that was my primary intention.
Speaker 2:Then, the day you go to a place that is hopefully decorated beautifully it should not be a sterile hospital room. My journey room had multiple seating areas, a beautiful mattress on the floor, with piled high blankets and pillows, which I love because I'm a cuddler. I was allowed to bring anything I wanted my fluffy socks, my sweatshirt, my eye mask, any food that I wanted, because you fast going into it. So when you start to come out of the enhanced state, which can be five to eight hours, you're going to be hungry. So you bring what you want.
Speaker 2:And so it was a lovely room with beautiful tapestries and just, it was one of the. I read it, I wrote in the book. It was like the kind of room that when you come in from the snow and you you know the house smells like chocolate chip cookies, like that's the feeling of the journey room, because setting is super important, so like a dark hospital room with like beeping Anyway. So five to eight hours of the actual experience working with two professionals. They are primarily empathetic witnesses. They only push back or do traditional therapy when they hear something dangerous coming out of a patient's mouth.
Speaker 2:I don't deserve to be here. I shouldn't have been born. That's the only time they do a little bit of pushing back the rest of the time for a trauma patient. This is not a coaching session for a trauma patient. It's allowing the trauma patient to, for the first time, have their body calm. And I'm putting my hands on my shoulders because I think my shoulders were up to my neck my entire life. First time my body was calm, my amygdala was calm and I was able to tell two people that I was 1000% sure that if my father was in the room he'd be trying to kill me, and they didn't. They didn't push back against that.
Speaker 2:Their role when someone is dealing with that trauma is to simply witness it, hear it. So you have five to eight hours alternating, with me talking and then me laying down, putting my eye mask on and, and it's all patient driven. It's all patient driven. And then the days, weeks and sometimes, in my case, months after it. Think of like the physical therapy after a surgery. In psychedelics it's called integration, because what would happen? This is the healing part. This is what you're going to find really cool. Almost memory. By memory, I would have a memory of my childhood kind of float up into my brain. Like you know, we take a shower and you get an idea you're taking a walk, like that's how it was, like old childhood memories that I hadn't thought about in like 20 years, how it was like old childhood memories that I hadn't thought about in like 20 years.
Speaker 2:They would kind of pop up and instead of seeing the memory of my father beating me when I was three and throwing me around the room and my head bleeding, and instead of seeing that in the traditional way where I would get scared, I finally saw it for what it was A six foot two for what it was a six foot two, 230 pound, pathetic man beating up a little girl. And that's the healing, the shift in that memory, the shift in that emotion. And so almost memory by memory, by memory. That's how the process happens. It's absolutely really zippy. It's like pop rocky ish.
Speaker 2:it's super, super fast right after the journey and then it kind of it's or like a fire, like it's super roaring in the very beginning, and then it kind of dies out right and you know that you're ready for a next one, when you kind of stop having those memories come up to reshape, but you still have the ptsd symptoms, that's when you know that you need another one. And so that's how we knew. After the third one, I didn't need another MDMA session with my doctors because I I didn't have that crushing fear anymore. I technically did not qualify for a PTSD diagnosis after the third one.
Speaker 1:Just like all those other people you said.
Speaker 2:I don't want to misrepresent I still had 19 years of trauma to deal with in my therapy relationship. I have loved working with medicines to heal traumas, but I was no longer suicidal. I knew there was a future. I knew the universe wasn't out to get me major. Major. There was the ability to feel joy, and so you know that it's a.
Speaker 1:It's a big thing so your therapy was using mdma yes why that, instead of psilocybin or lsd or any of the other ones you mentioned earlier? So like, why did they say, well, the right one for Jill is MDMA?
Speaker 2:I think that's a beautiful question, because what's happening is you're seeing these broad claims that everything heals PTSD, mushrooms, lsd, bufo and so what I think is really important to understand is that and this is my opinion, I don't think we have research on this yet is that if you're someone who has had a solid upbringing and then you go through something traumatic, I personally think that a mushroom journey, a 5-MeO bufo journey and potentially an LSD I haven't worked with LSD yet so I can't really speak to it, but from what I hear, I think if you've got like an isolated incident or two, a high dose or a dose of a certain psychedelic can do amazing things. Mdma is a beautiful medicine for long-held trauma. Think of it almost like as a complex PTSD kind of medication, and I'll explain that. I was so scared I would not have done well with a mushroom journey that first time around because I would not have been able to control it. And as a trauma patient, as a trauma victim, my whole life was about control. Mdma allowed me to have enough, and I know this because we voice recorded them. And I say that to everybody If you're going into an MDMA therapeutic journey, voice record it, because you'll only remember like 45 minutes and it's amazing what your subconscious says, and so I know just how scared I was, and MDMA allowed my body to calm down enough.
Speaker 2:And years later, years later after my therapy, after, you know, having fun exploring other psychedelics, I actually had an emotional flashback to my partner's passing. The night he passed, something happened in my life that kind of triggered this panic attack again about my partner's passing and of all the medications that I had then been familiar with. I asked a friend of mine to come and sit with me for an MDMA session because I knew I needed my nervous system to be regulated, I needed the fear to be calmed down, because I knew that my fear was completely irrational compared to what was actually happening, to what was actually happening. So, in my opinion, if you've got a long, if you've got a foundational base of trauma, mdma is beautiful. If you've got, you know, a horrific car accident and you can't get into the car again, you know, maybe, maybe a psilocybin journey is really all you need. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It totally makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. The name of the movie, by the way, was Fantastic Fungi.
Speaker 2:Oh, nicely done, Nicely done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the movie I was thinking of. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
Speaker 2:Is that the one where he talks about the stuttering, where he talks about going up into the tree and it fixed his stuttering.
Speaker 1:No, I'm not sure, may it, it may be. It's been so long now since I've seen it because it was six or seven years ago, uh that I don't remember everything about it. I just remember that one bit, um. So you touched on something that I want to go back to. I sort of bookmarked it in my head, and that is you had mentioned that they will sort of leave you alone unless you start going someplace really negative, in which case they'll push back a little bit. And I recognize that therapeutic use of psychedelics is different than recreational use, but the way that people can have a bad trip when using it recreationally, is there such a thing as a bad trip when using it therapeutically?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. Yeah, let's define bad trip.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. So from what I've heard, I have not been in that situation. Knock on wood, I'm knocking on my head, knock on wood. I do a lot of preparation before a therapeutic. I have really found value in preparing because I'm very goal oriented. I mean, that's really what it comes down to.
Speaker 2:I don't want to waste my time, but what I have heard from anecdotal stories of other people in a therapeutic environment is that they might not feel safe enough that even under like the very first MDMA journey therapeutically is really about safety. It's about the client or the patient trusting that their subconscious can actually be trusted with the adults that are in the room. Even that opening of even that little bit of opening to trust in that kind of very vulnerable environment it freaks them out and I've heard from people they just shut it down. They just shut it down, they just stopped responding, they shut it down. They went quiet for like four hours and they probably felt really scared because it takes you back to when, it takes you back to your subconscious, when you were a little kid and you were terrified, and so in that, technically people would say that's a bad trip.
Speaker 2:Therapists would say that's the first step. Okay, what did we then learn? We learned we need to go a little slower. Those inner children need more trust. As opposed to taking two steps at a time, we take a half step at a time, so that's very different therapeutically. A bad trip therapeutically is usually it's usually rooted in horrific trauma.
Speaker 1:Makes complete sense. I mean, as you're saying it, I'm going yeah, that makes total sense.
Speaker 2:Which is why, if you're doing it therapeutically, really make sure you're with some professionals, because if you're dealing with some dark stuff and you're not with somebody who's trained, you know it might scare you even more. Right, you know it might. It might scare you even more right.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to add, ask you to advocate for something that might be illegal in certain places, but I already do is there value in recreational use of psychedelics, or should it really only be used in the presence of of a therapist?
Speaker 2:You know what I'd actually? I actually think when you talk to some people who aren't, I think when a lot of, I think a lot of people start their journey of self-discovery through recreational mushrooms they're like, ah, I did some shrooms with some friends and then I went and I took a walk in the woods and I had some amazing insights.
Speaker 2:And then they kind of start to realize what the medication is. Number one. Number two I don't think there's any harm in the idea that healing can actually be partially enjoyable, in the idea that healing can actually be partially enjoyable. We have this kind of westernized version of medicine that it always has to be hard to take, it's got to be a big pill, it's got to taste awful. You know, some people are talking about how dare we actually have hallucinations and a mushroom journey when you're trying to heal smoking, because that's a kind of a cool thing that happens and that shouldn't be part of the process. Like I don't really know if I see that like what's the big deal if part of the journey is actually enjoyable while you're healing an addiction? My only concern with recreational use is safety and dosage, environment and dosage. You know, with MDMA, when every single weekend at the clubs people are using MDMA and yet we don't have people showing.
Speaker 2:We don't have hundreds of thousands of people showing up in emergency rooms. You have occasional people getting overheated. People don't realize MDMA is a stimulant. So if you've got a heart issue, don't take it. And what's often not talked about is that if you or your family have any sort of history of a phobia, or especially schizophrenia, stay away from psychedelics and marijuana. So like, as long as you kind of screen yourself and you're taking appropriate doses and you're with people that you trust. You know, to me it's very similar to having a couple of beers at the on a Friday or Saturday night.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you really think about it now you got me on it. Now you got me talking.
Speaker 1:Now you got watch out.
Speaker 2:You really think about it. Schedule one drugs are defined as drugs that have addictive tendencies and show no medical value, right? Why the heck are cigarettes and alcohol not Schedule I drugs? They're both addictive and neither one of them have any sort of health benefit. And yet MDMA and mushrooms absolutely have anecdotal evidence, clinical trial evidence more recently, and yet there's still schedule one.
Speaker 1:Right? Well, because there's no psychedelics lobby in Washington.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right, you nailed it we're not an anti-drug society. We're the drug that has the biggest lobby society.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who is this right for?
Speaker 2:MDMA therapy.
Speaker 1:Any psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy? Who's the right patient for this? Who's the indicated patient for this?
Speaker 2:Well as of right now, according to the clinical trial data MDMA for PTSD, and they are looking at MDMA for anxiety and depression in some other clinical studies. For depression, the Johns Hopkins work for depression in terms of psilocybin. They're doing some tremendous work. Treatment-resistant depression especially, they're doing some amazing work Depression, anxiety. I just signed up for a meeting, I think this Wednesday, as a matter of fact, about chronic pain and psilocybin, which I think is very, very interesting. So, like, if neuroplasticity can change your brain, can it impact chronic pain, like the cluster headaches? There's a lot of evidence right now about cluster headaches and psilocybin. So what I say to folks is you need to know what. In my opinion, you need to know what your diagnosis is, your diagnosis and your history, because that's going to determine what medicine, what psychedelic medicine, you might choose is really the way that I put it. It's all situational, the same way. You would go to a doctor and there's like five different blood pressure medications. I don't know if there are folks I don't have a blood pressure.
Speaker 2:But you know what Perimenopause. Same way. I go to the doctor and there's five different ways that I can take estrogen. My doctor has to figure out my symptoms, what I'm doing, and there's five different ways that I can take estrogen. My doctor has to figure out my symptoms, what I'm doing and what's best for me. And you follow the same procedure when you're talking about psychedelic medicines for mental health.
Speaker 1:Who shouldn't?
Speaker 2:Anybody who has any history of schizophrenia in their family and themselves, and you might sit there and go, well, I'm in my forties and I don't have any schizophrenia, but, like my uncle Frank did, then, stay away, because you can have, uh, you, it can literally happen that quickly with a psychedelic or even with marijuana. If you've got a history of of schizophrenia in your family, stay away. The current research right now doesn't really show any uh, any folks with phobias or with personality disorders and so kind of the recommendation right now is they don't really know how psychedelics work with those disorders, so they're kind of dissuading that. That would be something I would really be cautious about. Some psychedelics you might have a heart issue with MDMA, since it's a stimulant. You know you might have a heart issue with MDMA, since it's a stimulant. You also have to be super, super careful.
Speaker 2:There's a beautiful document from one of the Oregon oh my gosh, I'm totally blanking out on their name, but you can Google it you have to be careful about what prescription medication that you're on. So if you're already on an SSRI medication, you cannot take certain psychedelics because you're just going to blow out your serotonin. You know. You just have to be super, super careful. So always be careful of what you're already on, see if there's any drug interactions. And so, for instance that's a great example I had to go off of Welbutrin before I started my MDMA treatment. Any sort of schizophrenia, any sort of phobias, any sort of personality disorders. And if you're already on prescription medication, see if there are any drug interactions, I think. And then any sort of physicality issues.
Speaker 1:Correct me if I'm wrong, but psychedelic is not synonymous with hallucinogenic, correct? Right now?
Speaker 2:there is a name. Yeah, I don't actually know what it stands for.
Speaker 1:I think you're right, though okay, because earlier you said well, you know, lsd is hallucinogenic, but mdma is not right. So what's the significance about choosing something with hallucinogenic properties versus choosing something that doesn't have hallucinogenic properties versus choosing something that doesn't have hallucinogenic properties? Is there something significant about hallucinations from a therapeutic perspective?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, um, let me get super personal and answering that question, cause I don't know of a clinical way to answer that question, but I can tell you a personal story.
Speaker 2:Okay great, I love personal stories that question, but I can tell you a personal story. Okay, great, I love personal stories. So after my second journey so my first journey was in September, my second journey was in December, Around March I had this horrible nightmare where I, as a little child of five years old, I was stuck in the childhood home where my father had beaten us and my mother had attempted suicide multiple times. Where the door was in real life, there was just a wall. I had this weird, weird nightmare and no exaggeration. My therapist and I, you know, trying to do some reparenting techniques, we tried to get that little girl out of the house. By May we still couldn't get her out of the house. Now I'm shortening the story.
Speaker 2:At that point we scheduled my third journey for the end of May and my doctor, my therapist and guide, said Jill, there's obviously a big trauma point here, like we all knew that right. And they basically said we're still going to use MDMA because there's clearly a lot of fear. But we need your permission. Would you consider doing what's called a hippie flip and combining a bit of psilocybin into the journey if we can't find the door to that house? And I was like, okay, I had never done magic mushrooms before. But I asked all the questions Am I going to throw up? Am I going to get sick? What's going to be like? I asked all the questions and they assured me that they had done this before, my guide had done this before and everything was going to be fine.
Speaker 2:And lo and behold, that's what happened about two and a half hours into the journey with MDMA a full therapeutic dose of MDMA, like the most you can do therapeutically. My inner children were stuck in that house, there was no door and at that point I was given what I now know to be a very low dose of psilocybin, probably a gram or less, and in combination. What that did was I put my head mask on and I started to see the beautiful graphics. And then the house. Do you know like how? Like a blooming onion looks, how like the onion is separated.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:My childhood home turned black and started to turn itself inside out. I was standing on like a little five-year-old self was standing on one of the kitchen tiles and the house just kind of bloomed open around me and I was just looking out into the beautiful sky with all of the stars. And then immediately I found myself in a beautiful garden just sitting on a chair. Birds were singing, there was grass, there was sunshine. It was like the complete opposite. That experience with that magic mushroom, that hallucination mushroom, that hallucination that imagination that got me out of that house and it was.
Speaker 2:I didn't thank goodness we had the voice recorder going because I came out of that, because it was such a small dose. I came out of that but I was still in the MDMA effects and I explained it all to my doctors and then I didn't remember it and so after I came out of the enhanced state, I remember we were walking outside, my doctors like to do some grounding and I was like so did we do it? Did we get the little girl, did we get Jill out of the house?
Speaker 2:And they're like, oh, yeah jill's way out of the house your question. I think sometimes there is value to that, to each particular medicine, and what it can bring.
Speaker 1:Okay, I guess part of the question I have is what does it feel like? What does this therapy feel, like MDMA, for example?
Speaker 2:Yeah, MDMA, you'll be surprised. One of the reasons why it's a party drug is that you don't really feel high. You actually don't necessarily feel that you're on anything, you just feel really open and relaxed and you love everybody and you trust and you're just empathetic and it's like the hug drug kind of thing, and that's why it's super popular at clubs.
Speaker 2:It's also a bit of speed. There's methamphetamine in there too, so it keeps you going. It's definitely a stimulant. You have to make sure you stay hydrated, therapeutically, you know. Other other than sometimes having to get up to run to the restroom and being a tiny bit wobbly, I didn't even know that I was on something and listening to the recordings. No, no, slurring of words. It wasn't like you're like it was. I either answered the question as clearly as I'm speaking to you now or, if I didn't want to answer, I just didn't answer. No, lying. Uh, yeah, it's. It's a really fascinating and I've worked with people in a coaching capacity with MDMA and they've come back to me.
Speaker 2:They've been in the middle of a journey and they're like, and they've done amazing work already, but they're like. You know, I don't even feel high.
Speaker 1:Good for you, honey.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you don't feel high, but they have like an amazing insight about their father, you know, or?
Speaker 1:you know, yeah. So there's kind of a little I'm hearing a little bit of a contradiction there, because on the one hand, you're feeling like you weren't even aware that you were using a drug.
Speaker 1:At the same time, you're also glad that you had the voice recorder, because you only remember about 45 minutes of the many hours of the session yeah, so yeah yeah, so two things can be true at once on the one hand, I don't feel like I'm drugged at all and on the other hand, I don't remember any of the things that happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I was absolutely in an enhanced state.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah you have used the term um breakthrough therapy. A number of times Breakthrough designation. Or breakthrough designation a number of times, as opposed to FDA approval. It's breakthrough therapy, so can you explain how you thread that needle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in 2017, the FDA gave MDMA therapy for PTSD breakthrough designation. Breakthrough designation, according to the FDA, means that there is no other drug on the market that produces results as quickly as the compound that they're looking at. And so that breakthrough designation it's beautiful if it's a private company, because that means that their stock price is usually going to go up in a couple of years. Like you want to look for breakthrough designation, there's actually a company, like I think two months ago, that got breakthrough designation for LSD. Like that's a company to look at in terms of stuff like that, because it fast tracks that drug through the FDA process. That's the irony here. The FDA in August delayed approval and they've been a part of this trial design, this therapy clinical process since, I think, before 2017. And yet we got all the way to the end and there's been a couple of commentators, and one commentator said it feels like they moved the goalpost at the end of the game.
Speaker 2:It feels like there was like the last remaining kick and they moved the goalpost. I tend to think there was too much of a concern about MDMA. The FDA approves drugs they don't approve therapy. Therapy is a licensure issue. And here you have a substance MDMA that by itself does not heal trauma. You have to be I mean, maybe you can sit with it by yourself, but I know it works a heck of a lot better if you've got somebody sitting with you being an empathetic witness or being a coach. It's not something. It's not like a heart pill that you can take and suddenly your cholesterol goes down, or else we'd have a lot of ravers and kids with no trauma. And so there was a little bit of a red tape issue that well, mdma by itself doesn't produce these results. It's this combination. So I get that. I get the red tape issue. What I don't understand, I think my frustration with the delay is that they knew this. They knew this for years. So to have this suddenly be an issue? Long story short, they asked for another clinical trial. You know Lycos Therapeutics, which is the offshoot of MAPS, has reorganized. They know they have people on staff now who understand the FDA process.
Speaker 2:I'm super optimistic. I just don't think Lycos will be the first one to get a psychedelic approved. Other companies are kind of hot on their heels with their psychedelic compounds and they've learned their lesson. They're probably not going to use the word therapy in their applications. They're probably going to use integration or preparation or things of that sort. That's my guess. How'd I do? Did I talk too much? I don't know if I explained it well enough.
Speaker 1:You explained it perfectly. Yes, it was perfect, and there's no such thing as talking too much. You've got content to create here. If somebody's interested in doing this, do they have to find a therapist with a specific license? Is there a specific certification or licensure for this, or does someone just say I'm adding psychedelics to my therapeutic handbag?
Speaker 2:All right. So that's a phenomenal question. That's the other issue. So let me be super clear. My therapy was underground, which means my therapy was illegal, and I had zero problem talking about that, because it works. Sometimes the only way to push against the establishment is to explain what you did. So what's interesting is that the underground didn't even blink at the FDA thing, because to their minds, the FDA thing, the cost, the amount of money that it's going to cost when this therapy gets actually approved, like in Australia, it's something like $20,000. So there's going to be a barrier even when it's approved, whereas right now the barrier is that this is all underground and you can't just Google psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist and find names, because it's all underground.
Speaker 2:So if you are actually looking for this kind of treatment now, there's two ways. The first way is find a clinical trial. Go to clinicaltrialsgov, which is the repository of current and past clinical trials. You can filter by psychedelics. I would also put some Google alerts together, because what's happening is that you have private companies and I always just mention Compass because I remember that's an easy name for me to remember but there's a variety of different companies that are running their own clinical trials and looking for people and even the MAPS website. So put a Google alert out, because you're not following every single company and you're certainly not delving into their websites to find their trial information. So that's kind of the legal way to go about doing it and, of course, you risk that you're in the placebo group.
Speaker 2:The other way to find people in the other ground is the very same way that you would become part of a community for anything else Like I literally just signed up for pickleball lessons. We'll see how that goes. Like the pickleball community. The same way that you would join any other community is the way you start joining local psychedelic communities. Start doing some Googling and getting on some mailing lists. You need to start making some connections.
Speaker 2:This is not something to do if you are in crisis and you need help now. If you need help now, go the traditional route get to a doctor, get an antidepressant, get into some talk therapy. But if you're stable and you're starting to pursue this, join some communities, start learning about what these medications are, what they do, what you need, and then start networking to find people that you think can help you and then vet them the exact same way you would vet a doctor. How long have you been doing this? What's your expertise? No shade to the people who are new to this, but you don't want the kid who six months ago, did two mushroom trips and thinks he can save the world. So you know, vet, the same process you would use to work with a doctor is what you have to do here? And yes, is it a have to do here? And yes, is it. Is it a barrier to entry? Absolutely. Just be aware that once it becomes legalized, the barrier to entry will also be money as it always is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in health care. Um, so we have two questions here that we ask every guest on the show. Okay, and since it is your turn in the hot seat, it's your turn to answer the questions. Question number one is, because this is the Authenticity Road podcast, what does the word authenticity mean to you?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, it means. It means it actually meant finding out who Jill was under the layers of trauma. Who was I and I'm using the word past tense because I needed to learn who I was as a person growing up versus the scared child I was. So, for me, being authentic is finally living the Jill life versus the life under the layers of trauma which dictated my behavior and my satisfaction with life.
Speaker 1:Wow, gorgeous, gorgeous answer, thank you. Question number two and this is your chance to freestyle is what is the question? I didn't ask you that you wish I had asked you.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. I asked this question. All the oh my gosh in business it was always my last question. What question didn't I ask? What haven't I been told? No, you know what. You did a really great job. I got to be honest with you. We talked about what people can can get information. I guess the only other thing let me freestyle, let you know if you are, if you want to hear more about my story, if you're a child abuse victim and you're like Jill this I don't know, jill, you know, check out my YouTube channel.
Speaker 2:All that content is free and I go through the therapy, I go through my experience, the book. If you are a child abuse survivor, you'll get the book. If you're someone who had a great childhood, you're going to find the book very repetitive because healing goes on and on and on. It's very repetitive, goes on and on and on. It's very repetitive. And I guess the last thing we already did minorly touch on it. But just be aware that psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy slash coaching. It is not turnkey. You don't take MDMA and five hours later feel better. You take MDMA and a day after you start to process and that first week you get more insights, and then even two or three weeks later, something comes up and you suddenly start to shift. It's a process and we tend to forget that. Even people who do medicine, we kind of get a little bit like, wow, I want this to happen faster. It's a process.
Speaker 2:So I think, that's important for people to understand too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we talk about that all the time in coaching and in our retreats and things like that. That integration comes later. You know, we even tell people don't talk about this out loud to anybody for a week.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. Sit with this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just sit with this, let this be, let this belong to you, before you start sharing it with people, because people who haven't had the experience are going to start poking, trying to poke holes in it or say you didn't experience what you think you experienced, or whatever. Let it really become part of you and then go on your integration journey and then let people talk about it. Let you know talk about it with people yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let it marinate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let it marinate. Yeah, anything else that people need to know, I think we've, I think we pretty much covered it.
Speaker 2:You had some really fantastic insightful questions. I think we covered it, so thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So I want to, though, connect people with you so they can go to the journey stagecom. So that's three words, all is one the journey stagecom. The book is rescuing Jill, and that is available through your website or on Amazon, correct? And, I presume, any other place where books, where fine books, are sold.
Speaker 2:No, I've been pretty lazy. I self published on so maybe there is an audio book. If people are into audio books, you get to listen to my voice.
Speaker 1:So you read the audio book yourself. I love that. I love that. What other places should we point people that? Your YouTube channel, I think.
Speaker 2:YouTube is the best because I'm actually going to be shifting some of my content. Most of my content up to this point has been primarily MDMA, but after the FDA ruling and the kind of questions I'm getting from people, I'm going to start expanding my content. So, people, exactly the questions you had if you have a depression diagnosis, what do you do If you don't have a depression diagnosis and you just want to get over a hump, what do you do? So to kind of answer those questions. So I think YouTube, youtube is where that content's going to land.
Speaker 1:And what's the name of your YouTube channel?
Speaker 1:The Journey Sage YouTube is where that content is going to land and what's the name of your YouTube channel the Journey Sage. The Journey Sage Same thing, great. And, of course, as is always the case, these links will be in the show notes. So if you're listening and you want to access any of this, you can just check the show notes. If you don't have a pen handy and didn't jot down thejourneysagecom, then you'll find it there. So, uh, I can tell by the clock on the wall that our time together is coming to a close and, uh, I just want to say, jill, that this has been, first of all, absolutely fascinating. Uh, second of all, I just think you are a boatload of fun. I think we should just go grab a drink and hang out, but also, I just want to express my appreciation for you being here. I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to sit with us and talk to us. So thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, this was delightful. No, thank you for having me. Thank you for letting me be number three.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You'll always be my number three. I'll always.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I had a nickel every time I heard that.
Speaker 1:We'll always have Paris.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:So, with that being said, it is time to throw the bags back into the jalopy and head back out onto the Authenticity Road. So, on behalf of the show, I am Ator, and until we meet again, please be authentic. Goodbye everyone. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe so you're notified when a new episode is posted. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 2:We hope what you've heard will help you on the road to your personal authenticity.
Speaker 1:Visit us at wwwauthenticityroadonline. Thank you.
