Authenticity Road
Authenticity Road
Episode 3.18: Seek the Risk with "Adam"
What if embracing fear could unlock the most authentic version of yourself? Join us on Authenticity Road as we sit down with "Adam," an anonymous adventurer whose life story is a masterclass in living boldly. Raised amid the chaos of 1980s New York City, Adam's relentless pursuit of authenticity has taken him from the pinnacles of Wall Street to the raw reality of dumpster diving. His compelling memoir "Seek the Risk" captures his journey through non-monogamy, extreme sports, and self-discovery, revealing the profound lessons he's learned about masculinity, vulnerability, and true self-expression.
Adam delves into the intricacies of non-monogamous relationships, sharing his transformative experience with "Jane," a woman who challenged him to question societal norms and navigate new relationship dynamics. Discover how stepping out of his comfort zone led Adam to redefine masculinity, balancing the spectrum between bland and toxic traits. We explore the notion of a "masculinity continuum" and the personal evolution that comes from understanding oneself deeply, moving beyond societal expectations to embrace genuine preferences and desires.
Our conversation also highlights the importance of emotional awareness and self-regulation. Drawing from Adam's experiences in extreme sports, we discuss techniques like journaling and introspection as powerful tools for managing fear and cultivating personal growth. Adam shares the challenges and rewards of writing his memoir during the pandemic, emphasizing the significance of connecting with readers who resonate with his themes of risk and authenticity. Wrapping up, we reflect on the transformative power of friendships and the continuous pursuit of living an authentic life. Don't miss this heartfelt episode packed with insights into embracing fear, redefining masculinity, and living boldly.
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What if the path to your most authentic self led along unexpected alleyways and around hidden corners? What if embracing fear, risk and raw vulnerability was the way to truly live? Today we're diving into a story that shatters the comfort of the ordinary. Our anonymous guest, known only as Adam, is a man who has built his life on locating the edges, pushing past fear to uncover what lies beneath. His journey, as recounted in his memoir Seek the Risk is one of diving into the depths of both the ocean and the human psyche, of leaping from cliffs and into the unknown territory of his own heart.
Speaker 1:Adam's story isn't just about extreme sports or unconventional relationships. It's about confronting the lies we tell ourselves, tearing down the walls that keep us safe but stagnant, and welcoming the discomfort that leads to true growth. Adam has lived a life that defies the ordinary in pursuit of something more valuable authenticity. In this episode, we'll explore what it means to live a life where the risk is not just physical, but emotional and existential. Adam's experiences will challenge you to question how far you're willing to go to discover your true self. Are you ready to take the leap? Then let's get on the road. Welcome to the Authenticity Road podcast.
Speaker 2:We started this podcast to share our stories and hear from others about their adventures in men's work.
Speaker 1:Join us on the journey to our fully authentic selves, emotional healing and the meaning of modern masculinity. Here on Authenticity Road, hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Authenticity Road podcast. I am Ator and this week on the show, I am pleased to welcome our guest. He is a writer and blogger who works anonymously, and so we shall simply call him Adam. Adam is an adventurer and a risk taker, deeply shaped by his upbringing in New York City during the turbulent 1980s, raised by parents who were passionate about the arts and culture of the city, adam developed a love for exploration and pushing boundaries. This drive led him to pursue extreme sports like rock climbing, skydiving and base jumping, where he constantly tested his limits and sought new challenges. Beyond his physical pursuits, adam is a thinker and a seeker, always exploring the edges of human experience. His career has been diverse as his passions, with ventures ranging from Wall Street to entrepreneurship. Through it all, adam has remained committed to living authentically, embracing both the risks and rewards that come with a life lived on the edge.
Speaker 1:Known for his candidness and introspection, adam's philosophy centers on experience hunting, the idea of seeking out meaningful, transformative experiences. Rather than simply chasing success or validation, he encourages others to step out of their comfort zones, confront their fears and embrace life's uncertainties with courage and curiosity. Adam's journey is a testament to the power of living boldly and fully, always in search of the next adventure. His memoir Seek the Risk delves into his journey into non-monogamy, exploring love, sex and identity through unconventional relationships. Adam's story is one of self-discovery, where he confronts his fears, embraces his desires and challenges societal norms. Adam remains a relentless experience hunter, always looking for new opportunities to grow. His writing is brutally honest and introspective, sharing his journey to live authentically and encouraging others to do the same. He invites us to question our own lives, explore beyond the conventional and find deeper meaning in every experience. Adam, thank you for being here today. Every experience, adam, thank you for being here today. Is there anything that I missed or misspoke, or anything else that you want folks to know about you before we get started today?
Speaker 2:The only thing I would add is and first of all, that was a great introduction, thank you. The only thing I would add is I would say, from Wall Street to dumpster diving and living out of my truck, that still seems like more of a opposite ends than the Wall Street to dumpster diving and living out of my truck. That still seems like more of opposite ends than the Wall Street to entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were going to get to the dumpster driving and living out of your truck at some point, because I actually have that page pulled up on my screen so that we can refer to it later, because that is so in full disclosure. I have to confess that I've only read the excerpts of the book that you pointed out, but what I have read has left me wanting to read it all. I can't wait to dive in.
Speaker 1:The pieces that I read were so frank and unflinching and explicit without being salacious, and moving without being maudlin, explicit without being salacious, and moving without being maudlin. And so I'm I'm really looking forward to diving in and reading the whole thing, but I did want to get to that point about you know, sort of the, the, the grand disparity of experiences that you've you've lived. So what brought you to write this memoir?
Speaker 2:Um gosh, it wasn't. It was an accident. Um, at least, I tell myself it was an accident, but in reality it it fits in perfectly with with a lot of things I've done in my life. Um, it was. It was actually the hardest thing I've done in my life. It was actually the hardest thing I've ever done is writing this.
Speaker 2:And, in terms of authenticity, writing it was the ultimate example of authenticity for me because when I went through this experience with this woman named Jane in the book, it was very public and a lot of people she's something of a minor celebrity so a lot of people were witnessing what I was going, witnessing the relationship, and what they saw was very different than what was actually happening internally, of what I was like in the relationship and my strengths were. And they would ask me about it and I was like, well, absolutely no, that's not, that's not what's going on in my head. So, writing it was sort of like, okay, let's, let's see if I can do this. It happened during the pandemic, when I was doing nothing. So I just thought I'd, I'd, I'd try it.
Speaker 2:I'd always journaled and so, yeah, I just thought, let me, let me see if I can accurately describe what I was truly going through and sort of step down off the pedestal. A lot of people in the non-monogamy world had somewhat put me I wouldn't say put me on a gigantic pedestal, but people saw me doing this really well and in fact it was unbelievably difficult and hard and I learned so much about myself and so that's I guess that's why I wrote it. It just seemed like another challenge to be that, to be that open with people and let let the world into how I was thinking and all my failings.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, as I said in my opening, it's brutally honest and and that kind of honesty I really have to honor you for that, because you know, I know you've jumped out of planes thousands of times, but there is something very frightening about revealing such intimate pieces of yourself in this very public way, and so kudos to you for finding the intestinal fortitude to just rip your chest open and pour it all out for us to read. Really great, great work, thank you.
Speaker 1:What appealed to me about having you on the show is that you know, we talk on this show. It's called Authenticity Road, because we talk about how people find their authentic selves and the value in finding your authentic self, and we generally do it through the frame of men's work. What I liked about your story was this was how one man found his authenticity, how one man found out and learned so much about himself just by opening up and exploring, um and and so when we first met, or when we first talked, um, you said something like well, this, you know, this is pretty spicy. Are you sure this is right for your show? And uh, and I said, yeah, I, this is definitely right for the show, because this is exactly what, what I want people to, to get out of this. Right, I want people to just sort of completely fearlessly dive in and go. This is me, fucking warts and all Take me and see me. And that's what you did, and I realize I'm pontificating, so I'll let you speak.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll back up a second there. When you said you fearlessly dove in, I absolutely did not fearlessly dive in. I dove in with lots of fear, and that's something I talk about a lot in the book is the fact that fear is very real, especially in all the extreme sports I did in my 20s and early 30s, and it wasn't. The book follows my journey through the whole relationship, but initially the relationship destroyed me and that's because I wasn't. The book follows my journey through the whole relationship, but initially the relationship destroyed me and that's because I wasn't admitting the fear that I had and when I stepped back and started, and the book bounces between my experiences in the extreme sports world and in the extreme non-monogamy world.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't until I started making the connection that, oh, I need to start thinking about this, like I think about everything in my life that the fear is real. You need to accept the fear and then you have to try and understand the fear. Is the fear valid, or is the fear holding you back? Or is the fear based on? Is it based on preconceived narratives in your head about yourself and and and that? So I never dove in anything fearlessly. I mean, every all my climbing I have lots of fear. Skydiving, base jumping, the snowboarding stuff everything has lots of fear. So I I just managing fear and not letting it control you is is the key to how I've lived my life I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that. Um, and, and growing up in in New York City, when you did managing fear was a daily activity, right, it was yeah. And so because I didn't get to this part of the book, did you seek out a non-monogamous relationship or is it that you were attracted to Jane and sort of fell into the world of non-monogamy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely the latter. Yeah, it's definitely the latter. We all tell stories about ourselves, of who we are, and I had this image of myself by the time I met Jane. It was my mid-30s when I met her. I had been doing extreme sports. I had already started working on. I'd moved idea of myself as this big, strong, tough guy who could handle whatever the world threw at me. I had fun relationships where there was some flexibility in the relationship. Occasionally we'd have a threesome or something and I thought I was. I was so bad-ass man I'm living life on the wild side.
Speaker 2:And, but that was and that was all private. Um, and but that was, and that was all private. Nobody knew about it but my partners and I. Then I met Jane, and sex aside, the person that she was was incredibly attractive to me, and her intelligence and her worldliness and speaking five languages.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I mean it's just like the full package. And so as we got to know each other, she was like look, if you want to be with me, this is the only way I do relationships. I only do non-monogamy, and it's public and you're just going to. If you want to be with me, you're going to have to accept that with it. And true, I was totally terrified of it. It seemed way out of my comfort zone, and my MO in life has been if something makes me really uncomfortable, there might be something I can learn about myself in doing it. And so I said, okay, let's try this. And I describe her in the book as a female sexuality empowerment activist and, mind you, this was 2006, so this is well before society was sort of starting to accept this kind of thing. So it was absolutely terrifying and the journey forced me to start looking at a lot of different things about society and things about myself that I didn't even know existed. It was. It was a really raw knife her level of non-monogamy and how public it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and just to step back for a second, if in fact society has come to terms with it. You know, you, you said that it was before society had really come to accept it, and I'm not sure that it's even fully accepted yet in certain circles, I suppose. Sure, but I mean, I think we still got a long way to go for people to stay the hell out of our bedrooms.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:As a queer identified man, I face this every day. You know you don't get to tell me who and how I love, and so you know I feel kindred with you in that. On a side note, so now that are you and jane still together uh well, we're not.
Speaker 2:No, the relationship lasted about 10 years um okay, we're not together.
Speaker 1:Uh, we're still the best of friends. And and she?
Speaker 2:helped. She helped remarkably with the book actually and she thought it was a great. Um, she thought it was wonderful to write um.
Speaker 1:She's a psychologist, so um, yeah, she was but now that you're, you know, um, on your own, so to speak? Uh, or out of that relationship, is a non-monogamous approach to love? Did you discover that that is who you essentially are, that you really are, and that's what you want going forward? Or was it just that was an anomaly from that relationship?
Speaker 2:I explored what she wanted to have because I really wanted to be with her, but in the end I decided that flavor of relationship isn't for me. And this is sort of the key part of the book is that what I knew about myself is, if I'm going to say no to the relationship, let's make sure I was saying no for the right reasons, not because I was scared, not because I was threatened by public judgment. Let's make sure if I say no, it's because I decided that that that's just not who I am. I am or how I want to be in a relationship. So now am I totally monogamous? No, if you listen to Dan Savage, there's this talk of monogamish which is probably more where.
Speaker 2:I am, I partner, one relationship and every now and then, who knows right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one relationship and every now and then. Who knows Right?
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah, yeah, what I did with her was absolutely extreme, and yeah, I don't, I don't want to do that, but it was fun.
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess what I want to hear here, or what I want to say here, is hearing, that is, before you say no to something, you want to know exactly what it is that you're saying no to. Yeah, One of the things I liked that you sort of hinted at earlier is something that we talk about a lot in the world of men's work and that is getting comfortable with discomfort. And you said that when something feels like it might be uncomfortable for you, that you kind of walk toward it because you might learn something about yourself. And that's sort of what we teach in the work that I do, and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I mean, in listening to some of your previous episodes I do notice you focus on masculinity and men's themes a lot, and I'd say there's a tremendous of that in the book. I was grappling with my own masculinity throughout the entire narrative because it smashed this relationship, totally smashed what I had in my head about how I presented to the world as a man.
Speaker 2:But it's funny, you said the uncomfortable. I don't know if you read that line in the book, but I said I've made a point in my life to get comfortable being uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:I did not see that, but yeah, so it's funny. When you said that I was like, oh, did you read that?
Speaker 2:But this idea of discomfort, shit. I'm sorry. What was the question?
Speaker 1:we you can erase over this right I can, but I'm not sure I want to um, I totally forgot the question. Um, it was just really, you know, talking a little bit more about your experience with getting comfortable with discomfort.
Speaker 2:Ah right, Um, I, I can't remember when I first um came to that realization, uh, but it was somewhere in my early twenties or early twenties, um, that I, I recognized that if I always tried to stay in my comfort zone, I was never going to learn anything.
Speaker 2:And, um, learn anything. And the very first time that ever happened was trying out for my the hockey team at school and college, I think, when I really I was totally embarrassed the first time I went out. I failed miserably and then I decided to come back the next year and trade, but I was just, it was so embarrassing the first time I tried out that I really didn't want to. It was totally uncomfortable, but I was like, hey, if I want to grow, if I want that, I really didn't want to, it was totally uncomfortable, but I was like, hey, if I want to grow, if I want to seek and if I want to have great experiences, I'm going to have to learn how to get past discomfort. So I want to get comfortable being uncomfortable and ever since then, uh, I've I've just made it a point to always seek out the discomfort, which I know sounds crazy when you say it out loud, but it provides a lifetime of experiences that you wouldn't otherwise have if you always try and stay in your comfort zone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and that's why we try and teach men to get comfortable with discomfort. And, by the way, for listeners, that hockey experience. You have a terrific blog post about that hockey experience that's. That's really enlightening. I want to talk for a minute about masculinity. Since you opened that door, let's walk through it. This non-monogamous relationship challenged your notions of your masculinity and I'm curious what were your notions about who you were as a man and around masculinity? How did it challenge you and where did you end up?
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:That's a long question.
Speaker 2:I also. Just before I get into that, I also want to say this relationship challenged my ideas of femininity as well. I mean, who Jane was, smashed my ideas of femininity as well as my ideas of masculinity. One of the first things. So I guess I'll step back to the extreme sports. I'm a young man in my 20s full of bravado young dumb men as they say.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I was trying to prove myself to the world. I mean, I enjoyed the extreme sports I was doing, but there was a significant amount of second party validation that I was going for in how, in my climbing, in my base jumping, in my extreme snowboarding, I was doing things so I could tell people I did them, not necessarily just because I wanted to do them. And I had this real epiphany, which I describe in the book, won't Go Into Now, where I sort of understood that and I sort of switched and was like, okay, now, as I hit 30 or so, I was like, wait a second, I'm going to start living more authentically. I'm going to start doing things. I'm going to start doing hard things because I want to do them, not because I want to tell people I want to do them.
Speaker 2:So that was a real growth point for me. But what I hadn't realized is I was still existing in that idea of second party validation, with my masculinity around my relationship and around my female partner, and I had an idea of who I was and I had an idea of who my female partner was going to be. And that was who my female partner was was helping to define my masculinity in my head and how other people saw my female partner was helping define my masculinity in my head.
Speaker 2:This was all unknown to me until I entered in this relationship with Jane and when I first started dating Jane she shows up unbelievable. Right, this tall Eastern European, incredibly smart, gorgeous, can converse with anyone on anything. Phd candidate.
Speaker 1:PhD candidate Everyone's like oh my God, jackpot right and all of a sudden You're dating a supermodel. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:My value went up because of the adoration that my female partner and I was feeling, very masculine and great. But then, as I describe in the book, meanwhile there's this undercurrent going on that I know, until eventually it becomes public about the non-monogamy. And there's this one moment in the book where she puts it out on Facebook that, oh, I'm now in a non-monogamous relationship with Adam I won't give my real name and everything and there was that moment with, oh my God, this just happened and like overnight, her value went to zero with, with my entire world and my value. Like now, all of a sudden, oh, I'm a, I'm a little wussy man, oh, his, his girlfriend sleeps with other men. And it was this incredibly incredible eye-opener for me, a about society and also about me and how much I was basing my own masculinity on all these external sources, about how the external, the second parties, saw my relationship and my partner. So it started me on this journey of really understanding, okay, what actually makes me a man, how do I define my masculinity?
Speaker 2:And in the book I talk about this masculinity continuum I don't know if you've read that part and I say well, there's the bland to toxic masculinity continuum right, and you have bland masculinity on one side and you have toxic masculinity on the other and neither are good, but both have elements that I wanted to have Like. The bland masculinity has certain empathy and certain understanding and has certain softness that you want, and the toxic masculinity has certain strength and certain power that you want to exude. But the extreme examples are terrible. So in the book I'm like OK, I need to somehow blend these two to come out that elusive balance point in the middle.
Speaker 2:So the public non-monogamy forced me to confront that in a way I don't think I could have in any other way.
Speaker 2:In a way I don't think I could have in any other way. And it started me really looking to how I behaved, how I behaved to the external world and how I was satisfied with my own choices and how I showed up. And so this relationship forced me to start looking at that and I realized that the man I want to be is a man who behaves in certain ways. Looking at that and I realized that the man I want to be is a man who behaves in certain ways, not how the world sees me, and I know it sounds obvious, but until it's smacking you in the face with a two by four, it's hard to really wrap your brain around it. And that's one of the greatest gifts I got from this relationship was how much I started sinking into myself and being the man I wanted to be, not by how everyone else defined me, because how everyone else defined me went went to zero immediately after that. It was wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So you think you've found your spot in the continuum that feels right for you now.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think it's an ongoing process.
Speaker 1:Uh, I would never say, oh hey, I'm, I did it, I'm there now, I'm perfect. No, it's an ongoing process. I would never say, oh hey.
Speaker 2:I did it. I'm there now. I'm perfect. No, it's an ongoing.
Speaker 1:I've arrived. I've arrived.
Speaker 2:I'll just say I'm. I mean, I guess there's two ideas here, right. There's the idea of where in the continuum you want to be, and then there's the idea of how do you tell yourself you're at that point, right? Are you telling yourself you're at that point because the way other people interact with you? Are you telling yourself you're at that point because the way you interact with other people?
Speaker 1:right, yeah, and after all, that's why we call the show authenticity road and not authenticity station, or terminal or endpoint right, you know it's.
Speaker 1:We're all on the road, we're all kind of finding our own way. How much of that your value as a man goes to zero. Well, let me rephrase that how much of that your value of a man increases when people meet Jane and then goes to zero when the non-monogamy becomes public, is your self-perception, and how much of that is reality, like how much of that was your insecurities around? Oh, I'm high value now that I have this incredible woman and I'm low value now that everyone knows that she sleeps with other men, versus what people were really thinking.
Speaker 1:How much of that was a story you told yourself.
Speaker 2:It's a healthy mix. It was absolutely a mixture. There's no question and I dive into that in the book about my own, how much I'm being controlled by my own insecurities. It takes me a little while to get there. I mean, the book is basically a thought experiment told in story form. So, yes, there was certainly a lot of real feedback. I was getting from people. My best friend after this post went up. He's like you let other guys fuck your woman. What kind of a man are you Right? So that was very real. I got all kinds of comments. Anytime I met any of my friends, they're always like so wait, you're in an open relationship. It was just this. They couldn't. There was a lot of judgment. You know whether or not my value went to zero. I was telling myself oh, I'm this. Look at this great guy.
Speaker 2:Look at this wonderful incredible prize trophy wife I have, and then the trophy was gone, and so there was a lot of internal narrative around that, for sure, um, so, yes, you're, you're, you're right to point that out, um, and I definitely, uh, talk about that within the book. Right to point that out, and I definitely talk about that within the book.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you consider yourself a feminist or not, but as I heard you talk, I heard something in there that would make any feminist cringe, and that was this notion of your friend saying I can't believe you let your woman fuck another man, as if you are in control of this other person's body or you're in control of this other person's sexuality, which is such a toxically masculine position. I'm wondering if that occurred to you at the time or if that's something that you came to later or-.
Speaker 2:You're great, Itur, because-.
Speaker 1:If you've gotten there yet.
Speaker 2:Is it Etor, it's Etor or Etor, etor, etor.
Speaker 1:You're spot on, because I did respond to him and I wrote the exact line in the book when he said you let your woman fuck other or let other men fuck your woman, and my response to him was and this is direct quote from the book I don't let her fuck other men any more than I let her be female.
Speaker 2:Ah, good See, now I wished I'd read that so I didn't have to ask the question. I was actually wow, that was pretty. When I, when I said it to him, I was like wow, that was pretty good. It was long before I was even thinking of writing a book, but I always remembered it and then I used it when people were talking to me about it.
Speaker 1:I used it for years that it goes for the same stuff that I'm teaching men and the same stuff that we in the world of men's work want men to get through. This very how can I put it Through? This guy lens through this. You know, men talk about sex and sex is an important part of our lives and our identities and in this world that I, this circle that I travel in, we don't really talk about sex that much. Um, and what I love about this book is that it gets to so much of what I'm trying to teach men to do, but does it in a way that is not preachy and that meets guys where they are. That's why I just I hope that guys who hear this will read the book, because I think it's really great.
Speaker 1:But one of the things I want to address around this is the subject of emotions. It's really great, but one of the things I want to address around this is the subject of emotions, because in our work we are trying to teach men to feel their emotions, because men are taught from a very early age remember, boys that we don't get to feel emotions. Girls get the full palette of emotions, but boys get to. You get to be happy or you get to be angry and, by the way, you don't get to be angry because that's dangerous. So you get to be happy or nothing at all.
Speaker 1:Right, and what I'm trying to do, or what we're trying to do in this world, is to get guys and say, okay, you've been pressing this down for 30, 40, 50 years. Let's open up that door and let's let you experience the full palette of emotions and get in touch with that. And what the pieces of your book that I read that really resonated with me had exactly to do with the fact that you were able to find all these emotions that you didn't know you had and start exploring them. You know, what can you say to that? And where you found this, like where you decided, hey, I can feel shit.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that I mean in the book. I basically say that stemmed from all the extreme sports participation I did as a younger man Because and this goes back to the fear, right, right that I was managing emotions constantly, especially. First there's the managing the fear, and then there's managing when I was competing in things. There's the managing of making sure your opponent doesn't see any fear and so you're. So there's always this narrative in my head whenever I was participating in these sports, of managing the emotions and understanding them and diving deep and trying to flesh them out so I can control them better. Now, obviously, it's very different than the emotions around sex and relationships, but the process of recognizing fear and then diving into the fear was the same. Just recognizing the fear, the fear was totally different.
Speaker 1:Um uh.
Speaker 2:So I guess one of the things I've been hampered by my entire life is my emotions. They really try to control me. I have been noticing that ever since a very young age and it has been an ongoing challenge since I was a kid to not let my emotions get the better of me. And I think that's just I don't know if that's just who I. I mean, we all have emotions and as men we sometimes our emotions just spike. I mean, we all have emotions and as men, sometimes our emotions just spike, spike and we want to explode. But one of the things the extreme sports taught me is when your emotions spike, you absolutely cannot let them, especially if you're free soloing or you're base jumping or you're on some crazy snowboarding adventure. So I think that it started there and then in general, I'm just a pretty introspective guy. I don't have a better answer for you as to why.
Speaker 2:I will say this that writing down my emotions always helped flush them out, and I've always journaled, even from a very young age, and I think all that journaling probably prepped me for the journey I went on with Jane because I was journaling during that and I was writing emotions down because I never wanted to be that guy who exploded and then had to go apologize. And I want to. I mean not that I don't sorry, I came out totally wrong. I always apologize when I should. But I don't want to be the guy not that I don't sorry, I came out totally wrong. I always apologize when I should, but I don't want to be the guy who, like, smashes his TV or breaks, even though inside my head I want to take a baseball bat and start breaking things and that's. I think that's the Neanderthal in us that's still in there. I think, from the evolutionary scientists would probably say no, we don't have Neanderthals, just a very tiny bit.
Speaker 1:Just between the two of us. There are no evolutionary scientists in the room right now, so just feel free to say whatever you like. What I like about what you just said that really fires me up is that you got to the place organically, that we try and teach men to get to, and that is you know, we are always trying to get guys to expand the bandwidth of their parasympathetic nervous system so that they don't react but instead respond. That you know. My very favorite quote of all time, which is something that's on the homepage of my website, is from Viktor Frankl, who survived the Holocaust. He was in one of the death camps and he said between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response, and in our response lies our growth and our freedom.
Speaker 1:That, to me, sums up what you just said right. It's taking the space to say what am I feeling, what is true for me and how do I respond in a way that is functional and it gets me what I need. So in the case of a relationship, it helps me not pick up the TV and smash it when somebody pisses me off. In extreme sport, it helps me manage how my competitor sees me right. So you got to this place organically, through what you were doing that we've, in a very structured way, trying to teach. So I love that you got to this place organically, through what you were doing, that like we've, in a very structured way, trying to teach. So I just I love that you got to this same place. It's just so cool to me. I don't. There's no question there. I don't have a question for you around this. I'll tell you this.
Speaker 2:When I started so I go through this relationship with Jane I there were people had a lot of ideas of how I was in the relationship and they wanted advice and such and how I did it so elegantly and I was like it really wasn't that elegant. I was a mess inside. So when I started writing the book at first, I thought, well, let me just tell people how I managed to do it. And the first version of the book was called Chill the Fuck Out. Version of the book was called chill the fuck out. Uh, because that that's been my mantra in in extreme sports when I start getting fear. Hey, chill, chill the fuck out. You're doing fine, chill the fuck out. Um, uh, and it was this idea of don't react, just chill the fuck out, this idea of don't react, just chill the fuck out. Think about it, take your time.
Speaker 2:As I started writing it I was like I'm really leaving out a lot of the emotional stuff. So I said, well, you know, let me start adding the emotional stuff. And then, once I started going down that road, I realized, oh, that's actually where the story is. It was the emotional journey, not the how I manage the bits and pieces of the non monogamy, the story was in the emotional responses and the journey that those that those went on. So, yeah, absolutely the this idea of that, that pause, that in between and it's funny, throughout the book I talk about the pause, whereas in between potential energy and kinetic energy of whatever you're doing, when it's just an idea versus an action, and that pause is where you can sink in and either enjoy it or stop it.
Speaker 2:Right, Sometimes the pause is about enjoying what's about to happen and sometimes the pause is hold on, let me slow down, let me, let me, let me just chill the fuck out and derail this for a moment and decide how I really want to react. And so, yes, yes to everything you just said, and I said that to my friends If there's one thing to get through non-monogamy, it's just chill the fuck out, like just chill.
Speaker 1:And I don't know if you talk about this in the book, but what I'm also hearing is because one of the things I'm big on is trying to move into a state of allowing allowing what is to be what is, and not to try and manage outcomes and not to get attached to outcomes and it sounds to me like being in a relationship with Jane is an exercise in allowing and not getting attached to outcomes.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I will say that's the same thing in climbing, not getting attached to outcomes is absolutely critical, because if you get attached to outcomes it can kill you, and if the same thing with the relationship with Jane.
Speaker 2:it was about the seek seek the risk, not the reward right. Seek the experience, not the trophy right. We always call that um trophy bag bagging versus experience hunting. If you're attached to the trophy then you're missing the point. I mean, sure, the trophy is why you're, you want to achieve your goal, but if you don't accept all the risks that come with it and all the inherent hazards and objects that are in your way, you're going to be miserable. So, yeah, you need to understand that. Yes, I'm trying to get to a certain end, but the journey, they say the journey is all the fun and it and it. It really is and, and, and that's that's where the title comes from. Seek the risk, but the full, the full um wording of is seek the risk, not the reward, right, and make sure your, make sure your motivations for what you're doing are authentic, and that's.
Speaker 2:I say that in the book, right, like it's understanding your motivations. Are your motivations authentic or are you going for the trophy? Are you going for the validation? And that is something I battled a lot with, as, as a younger man, I still do. I'm, I'm human, I fail, I fall down and making sure I just always wonder what, what's, what's really my motivation here? Am I seeking the risk or am I seeking the reward?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to read a portion of your book. I want to read this out loud and I apologize if, as I do this, I get any of the intonations wrong. It's just that this portion of the book just knocks me out and it's one of the pieces that you said to read that when you pointed out the excerpts that were gonna be good for today. I've worked on Wall Street because I wanted to make a lot of money and then left it because it kind of sucked and was filled with soulless individuals. I lived out of my truck for a couple of years and dumpster dived for food at times. I've won a bronze medal in an extreme sport at the national level, renovated several houses with my own hands and traveled to every state in the union. I've had chlamydia and crabs, but not at the same time, jumped out of airplanes thousands of times and co-authored with Jane a lengthy article published in Cosmopolitan about what happens at a high-end New York City sex party under the byline Anonymous.
Speaker 1:I've said things I wish I hadn't and behaved in ways I wish I hadn't. I've tried to make it as a photographer and failed. Tried to make it as a writer, and failed. Obviously tried to play a musical instrument with some level of proficiency and failed. I surfed waves that terrified me, taught college-level physics, played in dad bod sports leagues after miserably failing to become a pro athlete read a lot of books, dated women 25 years older and 25 years younger than I, was been swept off a mountain in an avalanche, worked as a biomedical research engineer, done copious amounts of drugs and made deep, life-enhancing, lasting connections with friends that have stood the test of time, which is the achievement I'm most proud of.
Speaker 1:Experience hunting has drawn me to free solo, no ropes, rock climbing, extreme snowboarding where falls have consequences. Free diving no tank, two astonishing depths, midnight skydiving while high as fuck, base jumping bandit bike racing through downtown traffic and entering into a relationship with Jane, a publicly non-monogamous, self-described New York City party girl, party girl. That section of the book is so bracing it's, it's shocking, it's illuminating, but and it's also, I mean, giddy making I couldn't help but just sort of giggle my way through it as I was reading it for the first time. Right, but that's, that's the, the, that's the prize of this journey, of this, seeing I did all of this shit, and really it was about the experience. It was not about being able to say I did all these things, it was. Having done all these things, I am very curious, because that may in fact be the first time you've ever heard those words read by someone else. What is it like to hear those words parroted back at you that way?
Speaker 2:Well, I can see your face as you're reading, and seeing the smile on your face while you were reading it was actually. It just made me feel really good, because I just saw how much you were enjoying it. And to see that was brilliant to actually see your face, to hear the words. When you write a book, you end up reading it hundreds of times. So the real joy in hearing you read that was seeing your face as you read it and I felt that you actually were enjoying it and it was landing the way I intended it, and so that, yeah, that was the first actually that's the first time I've ever heard anyone read my book back to me. Okay, good, that was no, that was, I was. I was just actually quite tickled inside. I was really enjoying it.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's your takeaway, and I'm really also hoping that, having read that excerpt, you know, rather than just hearing what I culled together to create your bio at the front of the show, but that when folks hear that excerpt they're going to say, oh hell, yeah, I'm all in, I've got to read this. So I hope so. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's, it's and this is. Um, yeah, that was a I when I wrote that piece. I was piece. I was because I kind of wanted to just in a blast sort of, give people a real sort of overview of experience hunting without, and I was just. I was trying really hard not to come off as arrogant and so, based on your expression, I think maybe it landed the way I was hoping it would.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will say so. The first time I read it, not that it came off as arrogant, but my first flush was you know what I don't really like this guy because, first of all, he's way more accomplished than I am, so automatically I don't like him. No, but seriously no, I don't. I don't like this guy because he's all about what he did and he's all about trying to impress me with what he did and how he accomplished and and the enormity of these accomplishments.
Speaker 1:And then you get to the part about experience hunting. You know that the lesson you learned, that experience hunting was more important than trophy bagging. And that's when it shifted for me and I went ah, geez, you know what? I guess I don't hate this guy. I guess I guess I really like this guy. Um, yeah, so so it ultimately comes off the way you intended. But at first blush it's like who the fuck does this guy think he is? You know, it's like as soon as you hear the words wall street, you shut down, or I shut down as soon as I hear the words wall street.
Speaker 2:But then I go straight to dumpster diving for my right yeah exactly I was trying to do to do both of those. You know, I was trying to say yeah I've done this, but I also yeah was living out of my truck and dumpster diving for my food, so I I saw both when I was trying to make it as a photographer yeah uh, in my 20s, an extreme sports photographer.
Speaker 2:um, I was absolutely broke, I was awful at it and I just, yeah, I frequently the dumpster behind that supermarket I can't remember the name of it, but they're a big national chain.
Speaker 1:now was always great for dumpster diving, for our food when we were out climbing and such, so yeah, I was so I just yeah, I've been on both sides of it, I I guess is what I was trying to say with that yeah, yeah, no, I, I.
Speaker 1:I think the reason that maybe it triggered me a little at first is because I know an awful lot of guys who are into parading their toughness. You know, yeah, I'm an accountant by day, but you know, every vacation I'm out there climbing the highest mountain, or you know, diving the deepest seas or you know whatever, and posting pictures and look at me doing this manly rough thing and there's an element of performativeness to that.
Speaker 2:That 100% annoys the fuck out of me. Yeah, and, and so that right, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:And so at first, as I was reading that, I'm like well is the friendships I've developed these long-term?
Speaker 2:lasting friendships that have become family and I've really one of the things in my life is I understood and I explained that journey throughout the book is friendships are the whole point.
Speaker 2:The relationships that I build is the whole point, and I realized there's an event in the book that sort of starts crystallizing that for me. I don't want to give it away, but what you say about this performant, about this masculine, that's that toxic side of the masculinity, that's the second party validation masculinity that I have spent my life trying to get away from and I don't know it sounds. I mean, I think a lot of men, certainly young men, have that and I've tried to grow out of it. I'm trying I'm still trying to grow out of it.
Speaker 2:Because, that's where that, what we were talking about earlier. You know what's the real masculinity, what? How do you define your own masculinity in a way that's really authentic and not from the second party? So yes, to what you were describing about the tech bro or the guy who's always posting pictures for validation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the finance, bro, and I don't want you to get the idea that I was underselling or underappreciating this notion of creating lasting friendships and that being the thing you're most proud of. That struck a deep chord with me as well, um, and also was part of the shift of okay, this guy's not a raging asshole, right, cause he acknowledges that the friendships are the most important part and cause. Friendships are really important to me too, um, creating lasting relationships, and I didn't have a wide range of lasting male relationships. You know, I had one friend who was my friend since I was five years old or six years old, um, and we've had our ups and downs but always been close, always been sort of brotherly, um, but he was it, he was my one male friend.
Speaker 1:Uh, it wasn't until these last sort of four or five years that I started doing my personal work and delving into experiencing my emotions and wearing my vulnerability more openly and all of that that I began to create these friendships that I know will last me for the rest of my life, and we have an equation that we teach that says vulnerability times. Time equals connection. So the more vulnerable you are over the longer period of time, the deeper your connection with that person will be, and one of the things that I acknowledge about your work is that it's very vulnerable. You don't try and hide these softer, more delicate, dangerous pieces of yourself. You just you show it and that vulnerability is the key to. I'm gonna say I assume that that kind of vulnerability is the key to why you're able to make these lasting relationships.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't. I'm not a psychologist, so I don't know the, but I, the way you were explaining it made sense about the vulnerability. I've always called it how. I've always referred to it as the depth of shared experience, and if I have enough shared experience with someone, eventually they're going to see my worst side.
Speaker 2:And it's in that time, the vulnerability of a time and I just call it depth of experience which is, over time, you start seeing more and more of who a person really is, Cause we can, we can all show up and I can present my face and I can give you my best side and give you the best part of me.
Speaker 2:But if you know me for two years, three years, four years, five, you're going to start seeing me at at my most vulnerable, at my worst, at my best, and you get a much deeper picture of who a person is. And is this the kind of person you want in your life? Um, and I've had friends for gosh. Some of my best friends I've had for close to 50 years. At this point I'm 55. Uh, my first grade pals and I talk about this in the book we it's the group of us that are still super tight. Uh, I have friends for 20 years, 30 years. My climbing partner, who I reference a lot in the book. We met in my mid-20s and we just created a bond through our climbing, through our skydiving, through our just living of life. It's been unparalleled. He's the guy who's like you let other, you let other men fuck your woman. Uh, and what's interesting, and I and I later, later on, he totally comes around and and says wow, you're a far stronger man than I am. Uh, he's a brilliant guy.
Speaker 2:Uh amazing, uh, and I always knew that, and it was a moment of failing for him for sure, and he recognized that. So, yeah, time and vulnerability, and, yeah, the vulnerability in the book was that's where I found my authenticity in writing. This book was being that vulnerable.
Speaker 2:And, in all fairness, I owe a lot of that to my editor, who is one of my first grade pals. He's one of the guys that I have. He's a. He's a brilliant editor and he always called me out when he was. He would read a chapter. He'd go nah, this is bullshit, you're hiding, let it out, man, come on, I know you. This is, this is bullshit. And he would just said this is crap, rewrite it. It was awesome. Actually, it was someone who knows you so well, as your editor was absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1:You use the word brilliant about three or four times in that section and I seem to recall you mentioning that you thought you were not very bright because all of your friends were so much more brilliant than you are. Oh, so you read the end of the book.
Speaker 2:I read bits and pieces throughout yeah, Um, yeah that's true.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about New York city and your upbringing and a question that I have that formulated as we were talking, and that is that, with your parents being artistic and cultural and educated and urban, do you think that that gave you a head start in being more emotionally connected than, say, a guy who grew up in rural Montana, you know, to farmer parents or something like that? Cause I think of my early days in New York city, which was around the same time, which was, which was in the eighties. I moved to New York right after college, so I got to New York in 86, 87. And I remember how exciting and dangerous and vibrant new york was then. Um, and I remember who, who was it? It was like you know, camille padley or somebody like that who said um, why are they trying to make new york not dangerous?
Speaker 1:why is you know, why is giuliani trying to make new york not dangerous? You know, you know. Why is Giuliani trying to make New York not dangerous? You know New York should be dangerous. New York should be a little scary, you know 42nd Street should be kind of sleazy, it shouldn't be a family playground, and so that's the New York that I remember and that gets me geared up. And so to go back to that question is to growing up in that environment help you to be sort of a more connected guy than maybe you would have otherwise.
Speaker 2:Um, I can't speak for whether or not um that. I can't speak for the, the, the guy who grew up in rural Montana, because I have I have no, no reference point for that. Um, so I can't speak for the guy who grew up in rural Montana because I have no reference point for that, so I don't know how much nature nurture was involved in me. If my parents had been my parents in rural Montana, would I?
Speaker 1:be any different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, yeah, I do know that the environment of New York City exposed me to an unbelievable array of experiences that you can only get in New York City, and especially in the 80s, when.
Speaker 1:New York.
Speaker 2:City was rough and tumble. I mean, there was just that show on HBO and I don't really watch shows, but I watched the show the Deuce, I don't know, which takes place in New York City in the 70s and 80s.
Speaker 1:In the 70s, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it actually finishes in the 80s, and seeing New York City of that time brought me back there. It was, it was wild, and there was this edginess and there was this wildness and there was this creativity that existed and there was wildness on the streets, and every day I went out in the street there was a little bit of you know how am I going to keep myself safe today? Um, and I, um, so I think a mixture of all that probably probably worked into uh, who I was. My mom's sister was a very famous opera singer actually, and so I was cultured there, even though I was a kid who just wanted to go climb trees and race around Central Park. So I mean, yeah, I consider myself lucky to have grown up in New York City, but I know friends who consider themselves lucky to have grown up on a farm in Um, but I'm I know friends who consider themselves lucky to have grown up on a farm in Iowa.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right, right.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if I'm giving you a good answer to your question.
Speaker 1:No, no, this is a great answer.
Speaker 2:I do know that when I got to college and I went to a rural new England college when I got there I did notice that I felt like I had lived more than the kids who came from more rural. And I mean, unfortunately, if you're not exposed to different cultures, you tend to be afraid of them. And I remember walking down the street with a friend, someone I just met recently, right after I got to college. We were walking down the street and there were three black men walking towards us on the street and they just looked like regular guys, but the kid I was walking with wanted to cross the street and I was like what I'm like? No, fine, but I and and it was. That was a real eye-opening moment for me because I really understood how much the experiences we have and the experiences that I had really helped shape how you outwardly see the world, and especially in our political climate right now. It's about the fact that you know, in people you really disagree with, it's because they just haven't seen things.
Speaker 2:You've seen, uh, in a lot of ways and on both sides, um, so, uh, probably a very long winded answer to your question, but I do feel that growing up in New York city allowed me to interact with ideas and people that I probably couldn't have interacted with in that wide array in any other place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's a great summation and I'm glad that wasn't your entire answer, because there was a lot of great stuff inside that. I know you feel like that was an overly long answer and it really wasn't, because there was a lot of great stuff in there, and in full disclosure. Maybe part of the reason I asked that question is that there is a piece of me that is borderline envious that you know. I always wished I had grown up in the city city, but specifically New York, because after I got to New York I just I meshed with it so well. I lived there for 32 years before my husband and I decided to get the hell out and and move up to the mountains. Um, cause, it stopped being I.
Speaker 1:You know, it's funny in my twenties was an adventure. In my thirties it was functional, I guess, or essential. In my forties it was just my life. And then in my fifties it started to get on my nerves and I needed to get out. But it was funny in my twenties, thirties and forties. If you had said someday you're going to live somewhere other than New York city, I would have said, nah, never, I will never leave New York, I will never not live in New York. Uh and so when? When we made the decision to not live in New York, I was kind of shocked, but it was definitely it felt like the right decision.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, I can't live anywhere else.
Speaker 2:I'm too addicted to meeting new people and seeing new art and music and I'm a partial owner in a music venue and I just love that. And theater, um, uh theater, live theater, all the off Broadway here like brought to me Broadway's kind of dead, but all the off from it is so much great People are writing great things and doing great things and you can pay 10 bucks and go see a great theater performance in a in a 30 seat uh theater and like and like where else I don't? I, I do know a lot of people leave and I I just I keep trying to leave, I travel a lot.
Speaker 1:No, no, you don't have to leave and and and. Look, there is a small piece of me that every now and then, still wishes I live there because I miss the constant stimulation, I miss the access to absolutely anything and everything that you want, at every hour of the day or night. You know if, if I want to go, and, you know, roll around on a jujitsu mat at 2 am, I know there's a place where I can do that. Yeah, you know, and so I do miss that. And and, honestly, you know, we were big theater nerds and, uh, theater investors. We have money in a few shows, uh, that still pay us, which is nice, um, but we did a count once and figured out during the, the period of our lives that we were together, that we were a couple, how many shows we had seen together and doing the math, you know we had seen like 3,500 shows together.
Speaker 1:That's amazing wow, that's, that's amazing, because, because we would go to the theater three or four times a week. Wow, you know times every week, times 25 years, you know um that is a theater junkie, that yeah we were.
Speaker 1:We were theater junkies and we have friends who actually see more than even we did because we restricted ourselves to, you know, broadway off, broadway, off, off broadway. But we have friends who do that, plus bam and the opera and performance art and you know, cabaret and all that stuff. So, um, even even we get put to shame by by a few friends of ours. But yeah, so I get it. I get the need for that kind of cultural stimulation and, honestly, I do feel the lack of that where I live now. Uh, which is part of the reason that the zoom explosion is so important to me, because it keeps me connected to interesting people like you who I wouldn't ordinarily meet and, honestly, even if I was still in the city, I don't know that our paths would have crossed. I think we travel in different circles.
Speaker 2:Maybe, obviously, except if we might run into each other at the theater. That's true, we might run into each other at the theater.
Speaker 1:That's true, we might run into each other at the theater and yet, you know, it's funny. As I read the pieces of the book that I read, and as I've been sort of sitting here and talking with you, I've been like Adam and I should be friends. Adam and I should have been friends. We would have been great friends. You still can. He would have pushed my limits and made me do some things that that scare the shit out of me.
Speaker 2:Um, in all fairness, I I I mentioned something like that in the book. I uh my about my best friends. We just chat, we're always pushing each other's buttons. We're always, we're always challenging each other to go farther. Right that to go farther right.
Speaker 2:That's what I expect in my friends to push my buttons to push me. So yeah and there's. But back to the theater. Do you remember a show called Then she Fell? It was an immersive theater performance out in Brooklyn in an old and insane asylum. I don't know if that's the right PC.
Speaker 1:I do remember the show. It was by the same people who did Tamara and all of that right.
Speaker 2:It might've been, I don't know, it was a while ago. Anyway, there's a scene when you. I hope you do read the book, but there's a whole scene from Then. She Fell in the book that maybe now you may have a certain more appreciation for it, now that I know your uh know your love of theater.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And and we still see. I mean, we still go to the city three or four times a year and pack in, you know, four shows in a weekend, or whatever you know. We do a Friday, saturday, saturday, sunday, kind of week weekend. So there are two questions that we ask every guest who appears on the show. And since you are in the hot seat, it is now your turn.
Speaker 2:All right, I wish I didn't appear for this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, in a sense, by writing this book you did, because you bring it up an awful lot. What does the word authenticity mean to you? Answer already.
Speaker 2:Answer the first question first, actually, no, it's that's. I can do that one. I knew you could because I read parts of the book. To me, authenticity is being honest to myself about my motivations for what I'm, for what I'm doing. That's authenticity. Um that, if what I'm presenting is what's going on inside, that's that's authenticity. Um, at the, at the base root, I think that's that's how I would define it.
Speaker 1:If.
Speaker 2:I can look back on my actions or my interactions and know, yeah, I was being true to myself in that particular moment. That's authentic. So, yeah, I think the simplest answer is just that I really understand that my motivations are true, that I'm not, and that I'm comfortable, that I really understand my, that my motivations are true, that I'm not, and and that I'm not lying to myself yeah, cool, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:That's a great answer. The second question, which is your chance to freestyle, is what is the one question you wish I had asked you that I didn't ask you? Oh, um, wow, you asked some really good questions, um and there's another way to look at this, yeah, and that is. And there's another way to look at this, yeah, and that is what is it that you would?
Speaker 2:want people to know that we didn't uncover during this chat. They're kind of two sides of the same coin, right? Oh man, wow, I'm having a really tough time with this question. I'm failing.
Speaker 1:You're not failing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, well, gosh there's.
Speaker 2:I kind of wish if you had read the book you might've asked me about Chapter 9.
Speaker 2:Chapter 9 is titled Fight Club, and that is sort of the pivot point in my life, where Jane's best friend gets diagnosed with terminal stomach cancer and is given six months to live.
Speaker 2:And, without giving out the details, I am presented with a choice there that I or I'm presenting with some events that are happening that absolutely uncovered some of the deepest, darkest things in my soul and the journey I go through. In that chapter, where I had previously thought I had solved this problem, I saw into me pieces that I never knew were there and I guess the question I wish you'd asked me is like what was that like to all of a sudden see the monster that was lurking in your head, that you never knew was there, that had been controlling you your whole life? And I mean I'm sort of tearing up as I'm describing it, because it was one of the most emotional things I ever went through, emotional things I ever went through, um, and had I not, had I not said yes to Jane and yes to this journey, I shudder at the fact that I may never have learned these things about myself.
Speaker 2:Um, so that moment in my life and that moment in the book was sort of the whole point, uh, about running towards the burning building. Jane presented me with a choice Do you want to date me? You're going to have to date me like this, and I didn't want it, I didn't want. I said no, can't we date the way I want to date? It's like nope, this is how I date period Non-negotiable. And if I had let fear get the better of me, I never would have gone through this journey, I never would have had these incredible experiences and I never would have had that moment with Jane and her friend. That caused probably the greatest growth in my own self that I've ever had. So, yeah, I, you gotta. You gotta lean into the fear sometimes and you gotta lean into the discomfort, because if you don't, you may miss out on living the best life you can possibly live.
Speaker 1:Wow, what an amazing note to end this on. I'm actually, I'm literally getting chills at the moment, which is how I know. When I get the chills, like I know I've just experienced something real. So that's awesome, gosh, I you know, I feel like we could go on for another three hours. Uh, cause the conversation has just been so easy and and and sweet, um, and I wish people could have seen you just then wiping the tears away from your eyes. That was, that was beautiful, like literally, I'm falling apart here. If people want to connect with you, get in touch, read the book. What's the best way for them to do that?
Speaker 2:So I have. I created a website for the book. It's called Seek the Risk and it's net, not com, net, seektherisknet, and a little bio. There there's links to the audio book and paperback on Barnes, noble or Amazon. You can also send me an email at adam at seektherisknet. I got to tell you getting emails from readers. Is I got to tell you getting emails from readers. Is I get emails in equal numbers from women and men who just say thank you, right, it's like, oh, it was just so wonderful to know I'm not alone in having these emotions and having these thoughts and these conflicts. So I love getting emails from people. But, yeah, that's the best way to reach me and hopefully I am trying to sell books. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I would love it if people would buy. If you're a Spotify subscriber, it's free on Spotify, actually, if you like audiobooks.
Speaker 2:So that's another way, but yeah, the seektherisknet, and there's also a link to my blog. I've started a writing's a writing blog because a lot of people said keep writing, keep writing, and so I'm sort of keeping my muscle going. It's funny. We talked about friendship. I think the next book I'm going to write might be about friendship. It's the most important thing to me in the world and yeah, so, wow, you know about the writing.
Speaker 1:So I know you referred to yourself as a failed writer in that passage that I read, um, but you are the opposite of a failed writer, because you made me feel when I read your work and I actually read a couple of your blog posts as well, and you know that is not the work of a failed writer, that is the work of a natural writer. You, you, really do have a gift and you know, I'm, I'm, I'm glad that you're flexing that muscle for the rest of us, I'm glad for the rest of us that you're flexing that muscle, as well as for you, for for what it's helping you discover in yourself. So, any last words, anything that you need to get off your chest before we close up here.
Speaker 2:Adam. No, this has been great. I really appreciated the conversation.
Speaker 1:Actually, this was this was a lot of fun and I enjoyed meeting you, and I hope we continue to stay in contact because I think we might be friends. I think we might be friends, I think this might be a love connection. So, uh, with that, I'm going to say thank you, thank you, thank you. I am so grateful for you taking the time out of your schedule and being here with me today. Um, I know that you know, yeah, you're promoting a book, but I'm also asking you to give me content for free, so it's a trade to trade off.
Speaker 2:You know it's an arrangement, we have an arrangement.
Speaker 1:Um so so, but again, you really do have my sincerest gratitude for for being here. Thank you so much, and with that it is time to throw the bags back into the jalopy and head back out onto the authenticity road. So, on behalf of the show, I am a tour and until we meet again, please be authentic. Goodbye, everyone online. Thank you.
